Avery – 00:00

I was just taking in all that you shared and it was just so poetic and beautiful.

I just love the imagery that you painted.

So tell me, where have you landed?

Where is your soft, interesting space?

What are you doing now?

Serena – 00:16

What am I doing now is working exclusively with introverts who want to be more visible.

So all my fellow quiet achievers, my fellow high achievers who’ve been hiding behind, you know, titles and Certain job roles or a fixed idea of what’s acceptable to the world and how they should be.

It’s almost like we’ve put ourselves into a very pretty box with a very nicely wrapped up with a ribbon and it looks very posh and very presentable.

But there’s a part of us that’s straining against that, that wants to be seen.

Avery – 00:50

Hi, I’m Avery Thatcher, a former ICU nurse, and this is not your standard stress management podcast where we just focus on those band-aid solutions like the benefits of meditation, mindfulness, and self-care.

You already know that you need some kind of recovery strategy to deal with your stressful life.

But what you may not know are all of the sneaky ways that society, our upbringing and our high achieving nature and so many other factors contribute to our risk of burnout.

That, my friend, is what we talk about here on this podcast because you can’t do something about a situation that you’re not aware of, right?

Avery – 01:25

So if you’re ready to get out of the pattern of burning out, feeling better, only to burn out again, it’s time for us to shut the light on the truth about burnout.

Avery – 01:38

All right so today I have another guest and I’m really excited to chat with Serena because she didn’t know if she was burnt out.

When we first started talking she’s like I don’t know if I have a burnout story or not but she’s gonna share what it felt like for her and then maybe if she decides could it be burnout.

So welcome Serena.

Serena – 01:58

Thank you Avery, so glad to be here.

Avery – 02:01

Yes, so tell us a little bit about you and when you first identified as a high achiever and like how that kind of played out in your life.

Serena – 02:11

I don’t think I identified myself as a high achiever.

It was more like there was an expectation to do really well at school and my parents’ definition of it was second was not good enough.

So I always had to be top in class and that went on all through primary school which was fine.

But I noticed that when I did not come in first, I felt this tremendous sense of shame and of letting someone down, letting other people down.

I felt that my teachers were disappointed in me, my tutor was disappointed in me and actually I did get a comment from my teacher as well as from my mum that I hadn’t tried hard enough, that I was complacent and that’s why I came in second.

So I think that there’s been a little bit of a hangover from that Incident.

And it has carried over into a lot of aspects of my life where it had to be really good, a really high standard, whatever I do.

Serena – 03:14

And I suppose in that sense, yes, I was to some extent a high achiever, but they’re just for the academics.

There were many other areas in my life where I was woefully inefficient, inadequate, and I’m talking about sports and physical coordination and all that sort of stuff.

There was just no room in my life to do anything that was non-cerebral.

Avery – 03:36

And I think a lot of people develop that high achieving side of them due to parental expectations.

Like often this is something that’s put a lot of pressure on someone very young and then it shows up in adulthood like people pleasing and perfectionism and procrastination when we’re Scared of the outcome or scared of the process or things that are holding us back.

So how do you see some of these things playing out in your life now?

Serena – 04:06

Oh my goodness, every one of those I could tick that off.

Definitely the people pleasing, always questioning.

Am I doing it right?

What will people think me?

Will they be offended?

Did I say something wrong?

Even a silence or like a delayed response to an email could trigger a feeling of did I Say something wrong in my email perhaps that offended the person and so they’re not replying to me and so I always assumed that it was me that was the problem.

Avery – 04:34

Yeah, and that is so mentally draining because you’re always having that on the back burner in your brain, right?

It’s always running?

Serena – 04:44

Yes, always questioning, always doubting, always a bit fearful, almost like walking on eggshells.

Avery – 04:50

Yeah.

Oh, beautiful analogy.

Definitely.

So tell me about the situation then that you think kind of led to maybe questioning, is this burnout?

But what did that feel like?

What kind of led up to that moment?

Serena – 05:06

Now that you ask it that way, I can see little signs or little red flags here and there throughout, maybe from about 19 onwards.

Where I started to realize that the way I had handled the whole studying thing was not sustainable.

And when I went to law school, I felt I had done something I was going to regret, as in I was getting myself into something that was too deep and too big and too complicated and way out of my depth.

I felt like I had just dived off into the deep end of the pool without learning how to swim first.

Here I was amongst all these super smart people who already had plans for what they were going to do after uni and what law firms and everything they were going to do with their career and I was just floundering and I was like floundering for the next four years and the worst thing was because I was

such a people pleaser and as well as so afraid of admitting that I didn’t know, didn’t have the answers, I didn’t know what I was doing, I didn’t ask for help so I was basically Trying to stay afloat but without resources and try to figure out how do I pass my exams, how do I get through this law

school, how do I not fail out of school and embarrass my parents.

Serena – 06:26

I did get through law school and I did practice for 11 years but I was always haunted by this feeling that I was not good enough and I didn’t deserve to be there, that my degree was somehow fake or not as good as other people’s law degrees.

I think by the time I decided to leave the law, because I, now that you say, may have been burned out, there were a lot of other things going on at the same time, and there was also a miscarriage that I was recovering from, so maybe all those things precipitated that.

But looking back, I think it’s all these little cracks, those moments of, I think this is too much, I don’t deserve to be In this prestigious or this beautiful position or this role, this is too good for me.

I should be doing something else, but what am I actually capable of doing outside of what I’ve been doing?

All these self-doubts, I think they just piled on.

Maybe even the miscarriage perhaps was a wake-up call from my body that I needed to take break, I needed to think about Allow myself to think through things and just sit with not knowing the answers.

I was so used to always having the answers and always preparing, always anticipating, always having a script, not going with the flow because going with the flow just seemed reckless and irresponsible like you were winging it and that’s not how a high achiever behaves.

Serena – 07:52

And so suddenly to go scriptless and not know what my plan B was and what I actually wanted to do with my life, It just felt really irresponsible.

So even as I was trying to find myself, I was also judging myself for wanting to find myself.

It felt like a luxury.

Nobody sits around and does that.

Nobody just resigns from a job without another job and then says they’re going to find themselves or they’re going to explore what they are really here to do.

It just sounds airy-fairy.

So I did have to sit with that sense of not knowing and almost like an identity crisis.

Serena – 08:28

Like who am I outside of the system now that I’m not a lawyer?

Avery – 08:33

Yes, so this is one of those times where we have so many different emotions and pieces coming in.

So you already have the mental drain from the people pleaser wondering if you’re making everybody happy and you’re not disappointing anybody and then all of that emotional pressure you’re putting on yourself is going to drain that emotional battery as well.

So looking back on that version of you in that moment, what do you wish you could say to yourself and actually hear?

Serena – 09:04

I would have liked to say take all the time you want.

It’s okay not to know the answers.

It’s okay to feel uncertain and a bit anxious about the future, but you will work things out.

It will be okay.

I wish I could have said that to myself and I wish I could have had people around me that would have said that to me.

Multiple speakers – 09:27

Yeah, absolutely.

Avery – 09:29

So because you didn’t have that, what other things did you do to help find yourself, to figure out your identity and to find the way through?

Serena – 09:38

I went back to one of my first loves and still an ongoing love and that’s books and reading.

I always believed that any solution could be found in a book.

The library, the bookstore, those were my favorite sorts of places.

I would just go straight to the one that says how to win friends and influence people.

I think that was one of the first books I ever read in a personal development space.

Anything with a how-to that gave me a solution to a problem, I thought oh that’s it, that must be the one.

I’ll just dive it straight to that shelf and go look for something.

Serena – 10:14

And I think it was from there, from the first few personal development books that I read, and it was like, oh my goodness, you know, all this, it’s possible to change my mind, you know, I can be a different person, I can reinvent myself, I can like take my strengths and my The things I love to do

seriously, it’s not a bad thing.

It really opened my mind.

Avery – 10:39

So where did you go from there then, that moment of reading those books and now having possibility in front of you?

What came next?

Serena – 10:47

Having possibility in front of me did not immediately answer the question of what’s my plan B. I still had to sit with that uncertainty for quite a few years and on The outside, I just looked like I was being a stay-at-home mom.

So that was acceptable, societally.

And I was just taking a break, a career break.

And maybe it’s a temporary one.

But then we decided to move to Australia.

And all this leaving law, moving to Australia, all that happened in this time frame of like within two years.

So it was a very compacted life change.

Serena – 11:25

And I would say, I would credit that period as actually the stimulus for my growth and the person that I am today.

Because if I hadn’t had the courage to do those two things, one after the other, and then deal with the consequences after and continue to allow those consequences to play out, I think I would not be here speaking with you.

Hmm.

Avery – 11:52

So there’s two things that I really just want to touch on.

So when we look at your story, it looks like for sure there was some mental and emotional energy drain in there.

But fulfillment burnout is where we feel like the work that we’re doing is not what we’re meant to do.

When we don’t feel aligned with that, when we don’t feel like it’s making the difference, it’s not what we were put on this earth to do.

And it just feels that disconnect.

And so you Honored it in the way that it flowed.

So tell me just, you said that you allowed for the consequences.

Avery – 12:31

That’s such a powerful word to allow because so often we resist.

So number one, what does that word mean to you?

And number two, how did it, how did it feel?

How did you go about allowing?

Serena – 12:50

I think when you say it like that, it makes me sound more wise and far-seeing than I actually was at the time.

Now I can say that I allowed it.

At the time, it was more like, what the heck am I doing with my life?

I’ve just thrown away my law degree of four years.

It feels like I’ve thrown all this money down the drain, all this study.

I have no plans for the future.

I’m like a dropout.

Serena – 13:18

So there was that huge sense of failure.

The Allowing was being very honest with, yes, that’s the reality of what I actually did and these are the consequences.

Yes, there will be financial consequences.

It’s going to be dire for a while until I figure out what’s next.

There was so much resistance.

I was struggling with But that’s who I am.

But is that who I am, actually who I really am?

Serena – 13:47

Or is that something that was created a by-product of my conditioning?

And that whole thing just dipped my head in, because what does that mean then?

Am I blaming someone else for my conditioning?

Am I not taking responsibility for who I am now?

Am I saying that because of my sudden upbringing, cultural conditioning and so on, that I have excuses for not moving on with my life or not figuring things out?

And so that whole process was very untidy.

It was not linear at all.

Serena – 14:16

Things didn’t just slot into place.

The whole way, it was almost like I was fighting with myself.

One day I would be quite rational and I would be very calm and I would be like, yes, let’s do this thing, quite motivated.

And other days I would be like, I don’t know what I’m doing and I don’t know who I can talk to and I don’t know what tomorrow is going to bring.

And I’ve just made a mess of my life.

And so it was, everything was intermingled together.

The regrets with a feeling of excitement and adventure.

Serena – 14:49

Yeah, so it was really untidy.

Avery – 14:52

And so being the person that you are, how did you move from untidy to where you are now?

Serena – 15:04

I think it happened very slowly, very subtly, but over time, As I invested more and more into my own growth and personal development, taking all these courses, seeking out all these mentors, listening to how other people were doing it and then doing it myself and reflecting a lot and learning from

what I was doing and learning to love and accept wherever I was at.

It’s been a really long, it’s decades long, this whole process.

I can’t say I’ve arrived.

I think I’m quite far from arriving anywhere but now I can see that it is more fun.

It is more of an adventure that even though it’s uncertain there are so many beautiful things I have learned and gained and lessons and people that have come into my life and my life feels so much more interesting and rich than if I had stayed on my path and just done the predictable thing.

It’s been a wild and crazy ride I have to tell you and to be To be honest, it’s like I don’t think my family even knows what I do and they don’t really, I think they sort of like frown and eye roll a little bit and like think I’m the airy fairy one.

Serena – 16:18

And it’s really hard to explain, except to people who know and who are on a similar path, why it is that I do what I do and why I feel so strongly about it and why I’m so passionate about helping introverts, for instance.

And this whole idea of, you know, being that high achiever and then sort of like, it’s like a fall from grace.

But it’s also a fall into that you realize you are actually not going to crash.

You’re not going to land hard in the ground and do yourself major damage.

It’s actually more like you land in place that you didn’t expect to.

And you find, yes, there are some parts that are uncomfortable and there are some parts that are softer and more cushiony, more safe or more interesting than you expected.

And it’s just that whole Turning of the page and not knowing what the next page is going to bring, what the story is going to become.

Serena – 17:09

I think that’s part of the magic of this journey.

Avery – 17:14

I was just taking in all that you shared and it was just so poetic and beautiful.

I just love the imagery that you painted.

So tell me, where have you landed?

Where is your soft, interesting space?

What are you doing now?

Serena – 17:30

What am I doing now is working exclusively with introverts who want to be more visible.

So all my fellow quiet achievers, my fellow high achievers who’ve been hiding behind titles and sudden job roles or a fixed idea of what’s acceptable to the world and how they should be, it’s almost like we’ve put ourselves into a very pretty box with a very nicely wrapped up with a ribbon and it

looks very posh and very presentable.

But there’s a part of us that’s straining against that, that wants to be seen.

But at the same time, we have this thing, the introverts dilemma, which I’m sure you know very well as well.

You want to be seen, but you also want to hide.

You want to be seen and known, but you also want to protect your privacy.

Serena – 18:14

You don’t want to reveal too much.

You are afraid of, you know, what happens if I open this box and allow other people access to it?

What’s going to happen to me?

Am I going to lose myself in the process?

Where are the boundaries and all those things.

That’s where I am at in my work.

What I also love is that because I curate little introvert friendly tours around the city for introverts.

Serena – 18:40

I take them around to explore, to have adventures, to do something new.

I just love witnessing how a person who says they are anxious or afraid of meeting new people after let’s say two hours together with fellow introverts You can see the walls coming down because they are starting to feel safe because they recognize that hey these are my people and there is no

pressure to talk and it’s okay if I want to be silent and just observe and so there is so much relief and reassurance knowing that these people understand and just watching them blossom month to month year to year it’s a beautiful thing so that’s one of the things I do.

Avery – 19:21

Yes and you can just hear the passion in your voice Serena it’s just Absolutely.

Your energy is so gentle and accepting that I can’t see anybody feeling unsafe on one of those tours with you.

That’s so beautiful.

And you also have a podcast.

Do you want to tell us a little bit about that?

Serena – 19:43

Yes, I host the Quiet Warrior podcast and I call it the Quiet Warrior because I see myself and my fellow introverts as quiet achievers and we’re on this journey Where sometimes we have to speak up because there’s something important at stake.

There’s something that needs to be communicated, that needs to be said and no one’s saying it or other people are not saying it the right way or you have a unique way of saying it and it needs to be shared with the world.

So how do you go about doing that?

You have to grow into someone who can do that and that’s the journey from being a quiet achiever to being a quiet warrior.

Avery – 20:19

Beautiful.

So we’re going to link to that in the show notes, but if anybody’s listening and they want to get a hold of you, how can they find you?

Serena – 20:26

They can find me on LinkedIn where I’m very active.

They can find me on Facebook as well.

I’ve got my website, which I’m sure you’ll post to the show notes as well.

But yeah, LinkedIn is probably the best place.

Sounds perfect.

Avery – 20:38

So now for the person that’s listening right now and is resonating with your story and is not really sure how to find their way out, what would you want them to know?

Serena – 20:48

I would want them to know there is always hope.

It may take a long time, you may not see answers or transformation overnight, but keep doing the work.

Keep doing the inner work especially because transformation happens from the inside out.

It’s when you become that person and when you see the possibility that you are becoming a different person, the person that you know you can be and you want to be, that’s when you will keep pushing through.

But push through in your own way that’s sustainable for you.

Respectful of your energy.

Respectful of the season you are in.

Serena – 21:21

All those things are really important.

Don’t push as in hustle and grind and force yourself to do things that your gut instinct and your heart know are not right.

The other thing is micro actions are really important.

Even on my worst days when I don’t feel like doing anything and I don’t feel inspired, I would still pick one thing that I can do.

Something that’s really simple But if you know you tick it off, you feel really good about it.

So whether that’s like 10 push-ups or going for a walk or writing, drafting one article, one blog post, one email or playing the piano or something, something that just lights you up, something that gives you a sense of achievement, just one thing.

I really believe in the power of micro-actions, especially on days when we are low.

Serena – 22:08

So micro so that you don’t overdo it, you don’t want to burn yourself out, course.

You’re in this for the long game and we’re talking about longevity, so microactions I believe are the way to go.

Avery – 22:21

We are all about microactions here, so I love that and such a beautiful way to end it.

So thank you so much Serena for sharing your story and your learnings and your vulnerability.

I’m just so grateful that you shared today.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Hold it right there.

Don’t skip to the next podcast you’re going to listen to just yet because I have something else I think you’re really going to want.

Avery – 22:45

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