Avery – 00:00

This episode comes with a trigger warning.

We do talk about suicidal ideation and a story of a friend who completed suicide.

That being said, this conversation that I had with Joseph Reid, our guest, Is full of hope and a lot of relatability and a lot of power standing in your brokenness.

Joseph Reid is the founder and executive director of Broken People, which is an international mental health peer support group.

He is also active as a peer support specialist and family advocate with the National Alliance on Mental Illness, which is one of the US’s largest grassroots mental health nonprofit organizations.

He’s extremely passionate about his faith as a Christian, loving and serving his wife Melissa of 26 years and trying to keep up with his four awesome and challenging grown kids.

He is the author of the Amazon national bestsellers Broken Like Me, which is a wonderful book friend.

Avery – 01:05

He also has written a workbook companion and the brand new accompanying journal as well.

So without further ado, let’s get into this deep and beautifully vulnerable conversation.

Hi, I’m Avery Thatcher, a former ICU nurse, and this is not your standard stress management podcast where we just focus on those band-aid solutions like the benefits of meditation, mindfulness, and self-care.

You already know that you need some kind of recovery strategy to deal with your stressful life.

But what you may not know are all of the sneaky ways that society, our upbringing and our high achieving nature, and so many other factors contribute to our risk of burnout.

That, my friend, is what we talk about here on this podcast because you can’t do something about a situation that you’re not aware of, right?

So if you’re ready to get out of the pattern of burning out, feeling better, only to burn out again, it’s time for us to shed the light on the truth about burnout.

Avery – 02:07

All right, so I met Joe ages ago and we were connected through another podcast host that has become a really good friend of mine.

And when I listened to Joe’s episode, I was just so blown away by his story, by his vulnerability, and then also by his mission.

And so I’m excited to talk with you today.

So welcome.

Joseph – 02:28

I am super excited to be here with you Avery.

Thank you so much for having me on.

Hi everybody.

Avery – 02:35

Love it.

All right, so tell us a little bit about you and what you really experienced and what life was like leading up to that moment of burnout for you.

Joseph – 02:48

Yeah, so my true moment of burnout was in 2002. I was working in a couple of different ministries at my church.

And I just got back from Kosovo where I was doing some like youth work, church work there.

And Kosovo in 2002 was just right after the war that they had with Serbia.

And it was just a mess.

And I was so overwhelmed with what I thought or thought I couldn’t do.

It was just, it was just a short time before then that I had lost my dream job.

I had moved to the west side of Michigan to pursue a career in law enforcement.

Joseph – 03:39

was hired by a police department and I worked there for a month and then I knew I was done.

So all of that kind of came to a collision at one point and, and this, and this idea of I’m a people pleaser.

So I was working really hard to make everybody in my life happy.

And there wasn’t really anybody in my circle, in my, in my world that was telling me to stop and take a breath and that, you know, to, to guide me towards doing just a little bit less for my own health.

Back in 2002, we talked too much about self-care and mental health care and all of that.

I didn’t know a lot about it.

And honestly, when I did talk about it with a therapist back in the day, I just

Joseph – 04:40

I just need to pray harder, I need to be a better Christian, I need to read my Bible more.

And one day my wife found a picture that I had drawn of me with a shotgun in my mouth, a picture I had drawn.

She gave me an ultimatum of either to go to the hospital or Um, to get taken there by police.

She, uh, she definitely laid down the law.

We had just, we’d only been married like three or four years.

Our kids were all young and I know it’s a really hard decision for her to make.

And, uh, yeah.

Joseph – 05:16

And, you know, there, there are signs and symptoms going back to second grade when I really, when I really struggled.

Uh, with, with this, uh, balance and boundaries and, and self-deprecating thoughts.

And, uh, yeah, my mom and dad really hadn’t, didn’t know what to do about it.

And especially growing up in a hyper, uh, hyper Christian culture, you know, they did the best they could.

And, uh, you know, 2002, I get in the hospital and they drug the crap out of me, which, you know, that’s just what they did.

And I experienced all kinds of trauma, like massive, massive trauma in the hospital from things that I saw that happened there, that I never wanted to deal with the mental health community again.

But fortunately, 10 years or unfortunately 10 years later, I went back to a hospital and there’s a lot mixed into that story, but that’s essentially when the major So if we were to look back and like follow you around with the camera, 2002 Joe, what would we see?

Avery – 06:24

What are those red flags that you’d be able to see now, but back then they weren’t visible to you?

Joseph – 06:43

Yeah, so I was definitely immature.

I mean, I was a 23 year old guy and I think one of the things that definitely faces the quote unquote church or Christianity is this desire to put on a happy face and to fake it till you make it.

And it’s bullshit.

It’s a fucking lie.

Avery – 07:08

Yeah, so I…

Joseph – 07:15

And then something happened in 2018 that really made me shed all of that.

But that’s, you know, going in there trying to be something I wasn’t, feeling like this is the path that, that God had kind of laid out for me.

Believe in all the hubbub of other people and also dealing with this basic fear of my own inadequacy and my own stupidity that really kind of led to this, the culmination of the pain.

Avery – 07:46

So in that moment, when your wife says, Hey, either they’re going to go to the hospital by yourself or the police are going to escort you.

What happens in your body?

Like what emotions, what feelings are coming up for you?

Joseph – 08:01

I was amused.

I was, uh, I was just like, are you serious?

Like the mental hospital and, uh, And she had actually spoke to my therapist that day to kind of set this up and kind of get some guidance.

I was deeply amused.

I was deeply scared.

After that I felt anger.

I felt backed into a corner.

Joseph – 08:32

I felt threatened.

And

You know, just the way, you know, just the way we grew up too.

It’s like at that time in our relationship, I was the head of the house and my wife was the, you know, the traditional helper mate, you know, and, and we’ve really turned a big corner there in terms of our relationship and finding what works.

But it had to, it had to happen where I experienced that.

Those incidences of trauma or anxiety to actually knock me off my rocker and kind of hit a reset button.

Because I think you said in a previous episode, like, I think anxiety or no trauma or something is the body’s way of making you take a break.

Joseph – 09:27

I thought that was so beautiful and that my body was like making me take a break and what my body wouldn’t make me do my wife was gonna make me do because she’s maybe five feet tall but she’s a tough one.

Avery – 09:39

I remember you sharing that I think some of us Especially when we grow up in an environment where people pleasing is sort of our survival mechanism.

It really stems from this sense of trying to control all the reactions to keep this like feeling of safety.

And so when we’re pushed into something or feeling like we’re back into a corner, that feeling of safety gets challenged.

Does that resonate at all with what you’re experiencing then?

Joseph – 10:10

Yeah.

And I think the feeling of safety, this foundation that I was building myself on was, was not very stable.

It wasn’t very, wasn’t a lot of foundation to it.

And I think, I think a lot of times in society, we will find that the things that scare us the most are the things that most make us the most angry because we don’t know how to deal with them.

And you could definitely see that in terms of prejudice and bias all throughout both political and Racial and cultural and gender type arguments.

And I’m a list person and I do not like, I cannot do well without a spreadsheet or a list or order.

Something like that, and that, and that incident where she was telling me, Hey, you’re going to the hospital and we don’t know when you’re coming back.

Joseph – 11:01

And I’m the only person that made the money in the house.

It’s like, how is this going to work?

But it, it has worked and it’s worked very well through, uh, through the story, you know.

Avery – 11:18

Absolutely.

So you did share that there were some things that were very traumatic for you in your experiences in that hospital, but what things did work for you?

What are the things that started to bring you out of that burnout?

Joseph – 11:32

In the hospital or just in general?

Avery – 11:35

Both?

Joseph – 11:36

Yeah.

So in the hospital, nothing worked for me.

It was a shit show.

But I guess the one thing was just introducing me to this whole idea of mental illness, maybe.

But then I had a friend that I met in like 2013, 2014, his name was Nathan, and he was pastor at my church and he’s just like, we started this having these very I would say transparent conversations and just between transparent and vulnerable is vulnerable means they can do something with what

you’ve told them and hurt you.

Transparent is just like, Oh, these are facts about you.

Joseph – 12:13

And we had these kinds of conversations about, about what are both our struggle was.

He had just gotten out of the hospital, the mental hospital when he became a pastor.

And I was just about heading in again back in 2013 and so.

Connecting with him and then also going through dialectic behavior therapy around the 2013-2016 three years, which I call social skills for dummies.

Avery – 12:42

It’s a great explanation of what that is.

That’s awesome.

Joseph – 12:45

I mean, that’s how it works for me.

So, and then, so, so his life, the church I was involved in was very open to discussion of mental illness.

There’s a lot of talk of boundaries.

But there was still this kind of prism of me trying to be something I’m not.

And then on January 24th, 2018, my friend Nathan took his own life.

And that’s the point where I just, you know, I love the picture of, uh, people back in the Old Testament that would like rip their clothes and dump ashes on their head and shave their head and, and just as a way of mourning.

And I did literally shave my head and, uh, and, uh, cause I, I lost any form of communication, uh, with the world.

Joseph – 13:39

Like he was my buffer.

He was my, uh, one person I could talk to that actually could understand and not just have empathy for what I was going through.

And so that really rocked my world to the point where massive things started happening very quickly in terms of my personal development, my growth, maturity, my relationship with my wife, my kids.

Yeah, it just took on a big change and that was a big part of it.

Avery – 14:09

So do you think that everybody needs that kind of earth-shaking moment in order to go on that same growth journey that you were on?

Or do you think that there’s first steps that someone else could take?

Or do we need to have it kind of all taken away from us to start figuring out our own way through?

Joseph – 14:28

That’s a, that’s a really brilliant question.

That’s, you know, as much as I’ve listened to your podcast, that’s what I’m so thankful for.

Like you smart.

You know, my, my first response was, well, whether you need it or not, you’re going to have it.

You’re going to have those earth shattering moments.

And I, in 2016, I had met with this guy who worked in organizational development for the state of Michigan and for corporations.

And I had just talked to him about all the things I was doing with dbt and.

Joseph – 14:58

And the things I was doing to kind of just get by day by day.

There’s a special scale I have, there’s a way I do friendship, there’s journaling.

And I spent an hour with him.

And so at the end of the hour, I was like, hey, you know, I was hoping that he would give me some specific direction in my life.

And he says, well, I don’t really know what to do with you, Joe.

You know, it looks like you’re waiting for a major catalyst in your life to push you forward.

And on January 25th, when I found out my friend had died, that conversation came back to me like a rocket ship.

Joseph – 15:29

And I knew immediately what I was going to do with the rest of my life in a very powerful way.

And everybody’s going to have one of those moments.

And you know, in some ways I would say, if you’re lucky, you can have more than one, but at the same time, they’re very, very painful.

Like I said, I had, my house caught fire August 4th of this year.

My mom had a stroke August 2nd.

My mom just passed away on January 1st and I just got all of these things that are kind of building up and, and to find your peace and contentment and to find, it sounds strange, but this joy and comfort.

In my impression, God’s goodness.

Joseph – 16:21

It’s pretty amazing.

That’s a long story, but man, there’s been nothing but blessing through this whole experience.

And I’m so glad my perspective on the world shifted from, you know, what can this world do for me to what can I bring into this world and hopefully make it just a little bit better for one or two people.

Avery – 16:43

So I definitely want to get into that and I want to talk about how you’re making this world a better place.

But just before we transition to all the awesome work you’re doing, for that person that’s stuck in the perspective of not being able to see the blessing, what would you tell them?

Joseph – 17:02

Yeah, I get it.

I think when you’re in the pit, you know, and you’re in the bottom of that hole and you can’t really see the light on the other side, Um, that’s where like peer support I think is so powerful because you can have these people that saying with, with experience and with real, with real experience and

real stories to say, yeah, I’ve been in that hole and you will get out of it.

I got out of it.

Just hold on.

We’re going to, we’re going to find a way, just give it time.

And, um, and, and I can honestly say that like the path that I’ve, that I’ve taken and the things that I’ve done.

Joseph – 17:43

Um, and the work I’ve done and the work that, that like listening to this podcast, for example, you’re one of the great things that you do, Avery, as you say, like, I can’t solve all your problems.

I’m just, I’m one aspect of the solution.

And, uh, you’re one stitch on this whole tapestry of life and, you know, pointing people towards medication and all this stuff is really great, but they got to hear it.

And you’re here bringing that message.

And I would just say, hold on, it’s going to get better.

It may get worse before it gets better, but hold on, because if you let it, those opportunities of pain and sorrow will just make your story and your rebound so much more amazing if you let it.

And here’s the real struggle, and I had to have my friend Nathan really kick me in the pants to do this, but the self-pity trap, that’s a major drug.

Joseph – 18:37

And that’s where I was for many, many years.

And if you can, and if you’re able to just maybe see if you’re in that hole and you’re feeling self pity, if you can deal with that, uh, that’s going to be huge.

Um, you know, so.

Avery – 18:53

I love everything that you shared there.

It’s so important to realize that we can’t just like close our eyes to.

The pit that we’re in, the only way out is through.

And if you’re trying to go through by yourself, you can do it sometimes, but it is so much easier with a person, somebody else holding the light while you’re clamoring your way forward.

And that really ties in to what you’re doing.

Does it not?

Joseph – 19:24

Yeah, I think so.

You know, I started writing a book the day after my friend died and went to a guy… Which is brilliant, by the way.

Thank you.

Avery – 19:37

Love it.

Joseph – 19:38

Yeah, yeah.

Act now, buy now.

But it’s also made out of paper, so if you really don’t like it, you could just burn it.

It’ll keep you warm.

I started writing the book because I didn’t know what else to do with my story, these different things that I do to kind of maintain life.

I didn’t do these things to do a podcast or write a story, but these are things that I was doing to survive.

And when my friend died, I was like, okay, I got to do something with all the stuff.

Joseph – 20:03

And I started writing and then I connected with this other guy and he’s like, well, you can Impact to people that read your book or you can have a larger impact by doing a ministry.

I’m like, fuck that.

I’m done with ministry per se, because I don’t want to be pigeonholed to affect people that maybe quote unquote follow the same God I do or whatever.

Like, that’s just not where I’m at.

And I was able to shed that, which felt really good to me.

To push back against that.

And so I started Broken People because when I’m at lowest point, that’s how I feel broken.

Joseph – 20:35

And it’s not to say that people with mental illness are broken, but it’s this feeling that I have that in a way that I can connect with other people that maybe feel broken like me, which is the title of my book.

And the subtitle, an insider’s toolkit for mending broken people.

You know, we talk about mending and I talked about you being a stitch in the tapestry of healing.

And that’s just one aspect.

My book is just one aspect.

What I do with broken people is one aspect of a stitch in the tapestry of healing.

And here’s another formula that I found to go back to people that are struggling in that pit.

Joseph – 21:17

Your pain, this is a formula that I use, pain plus passion equals your purpose.

So you have this desire in your life that you’re always like, I want someone to do something.

But for me, it wasn’t until that pain really hit me that I was just like, oh yeah, this is what I’m going to do for the rest of my life.

You think about the pain that a woman goes through for childbirth, you know, it’s Glorious things can happen after pain if you let it.

Don’t fall into that self-pity trap.

I have no idea what we’re talking about right now.

Avery – 21:53

No, it all flowed nice.

Yeah, it was good.

So tell me a little bit more about brokenpeople.org.

Joseph – 22:03

Yeah, so we’re just, I think one of the Like little sub names of the group is hurting people.

You’ve heard that phrase, you know, hurt people, hurt people.

Like that makes sense.

But I also believe that hurt people help people.

And that’s what I think our organization does.

Our logo has, you know, a hand over and under and, um, I sometimes refer to our group as when our house caught fire on August 4th, our neighbors from two doors down came and fought the fire, their Mexican family, and the dad came in, kicked in our door to make sure our dog was safe.

The kids are outside spraying the hose on the fire and the dad’s inside fighting the fire with a fire extinguisher while they’re waiting for 911 to get there, you know, the fire department.

Joseph – 22:54

I’m in another city.

And I think that’s what peer support is.

And I think that’s what Broken People tries to do is we’re not professionals.

We’re in there, in the trenches, trying to put out the fires, waiting for that professional to get there where the real work is done.

But at the same time, like having that community of people, and we have people from 43 countries that are a member of our group.

So.

The idea that mental illness is like a Western culture thing, it’s just, it’s just not true.

Joseph – 23:25

It’s just, it’s not, it’s very taboo.

I spent a month in Africa.

I just got back from Paris and like, it’s so like hidden and, and it’s still like this, even with gender thing, like there’s this gender, like the rate of suicides among males versus females.

It’s so disproportionate, but it’s so messed up.

Yeah.

So broken people were just, you know, I don’t have a grand plan other than just, man, I hope my, I hope me sharing my story in, you know, the fact that, you know, some days I go every 10 minutes where I have thoughts of suicide.

Um, I hope that resonates with somebody, but, but to also see that, you know, this guy who has those thoughts, who has that struggle, Uh, who self-published a book that became a national bestseller.

Joseph – 24:20

Um, you can do it too.

Like, yeah, I mean, I worked my butt off and you know, there’s some things that I’m really meant to do.

And I think when you find that niche, like for me in second grade, it wasn’t school.

It was drawing mazes and I was really good at that.

Uh, and I, and I guess I’m good at this too, maybe.

And I’ll keep going until people stop listening.

Avery – 24:44

I’d say you’re very good at this.

Joseph – 24:45

Oh, thank you.

You are very good at this too.

Avery – 24:49

It’s a good thing that we all came together then because I think the world’s going to explode.

So much goodness in one spot, so much goodness in one space, because I, you, you’ve talked about it and I think it’s just so powerful in being able to share your story and have someone else say, Oh, I feel that way too.

And to not have to explain it to them.

Speaker_01 – 25:10

Yeah.

Avery – 25:11

There’s just so much freedom in that.

Joseph – 25:14

Yeah.

And it’s, you know, I don’t know if you can see, like, I know your people were listening right now, but, um, with the passing of my mom, I’ve had so much anxiety and just to be real with you and your listeners, you know, I’ve got scabs all over the front of my face right here.

Um, which, uh, just for me pulling my hairs out and that’s called trichotillomania.

And that’s something I’ve dealt with for a long time.

And it’s an anxiety disorder that, know, I don’t realize that I’m doing it until I’m doing it and I’ve, I’ve got this scab or whatever.

And then people will be like, Hey, what happened to your face?

like, well, am I going to tell them the truth?

Joseph – 25:53

You know, it’s, uh, these are, these are real things that, um, that I’m not really proud of, but they’re part of my story.

And in some ways I’m like, I’m glad I’m going through this because maybe I could share this with somebody else.

Like, Like things like this with like the pulling their hairs out or self harm, like those are indications, especially when you do it and you’re not thinking about it.

Like I’ll, I’ll wake up and I’m punching myself in my head as a form to punch, as a form to punish myself for a decision I made the previous day.

Like I don’t intentionally do those things.

I don’t intentionally have suicidal thoughts, but when I do, it acts as a warning flag going up.

Something’s wrong.

Joseph – 26:38

This is your indication.

This is your indication when you’re punching yourself in the head, what is going on?

If I’m dealing with fear, extreme fear, and I know that’s an indication, a flag goes up in my mind and says, what are you being asked or what are you tasked to do that you’ve never done before that you don’t have the confidence you can do?

And that’s in these, these little ticks that I have and biting my nails and Uh, Avery, I’ve got, I’ve got scabs on my left arm that have been there for six months because I can’t stop picking.

It’s, it’s just like I go to bed and I get so anxious.

Um, but at the same time, I’ve been married 26 years.

I just had my 25th anniversary of FedEx.

Joseph – 27:21

I’m working on my, my fourth book, published book.

Um, I’m hoping to retire soon.

Like these things.

In some ways they define me because they’re part of my story, but they don’t determine my future.

Um, they give me, they give me a story to say, I love you, uh, because I get you and please don’t quit.

Like I hope my story is a story I hope.

And, uh, yeah.

Joseph – 27:56

I love the quote, broken crayons still color.

We might be broken, we might feel broken, but we’re still doing some good shit.

Avery – 28:03

Yes.

So if there was one thing for the person listening today that you’d want them to really remember and bring forward and find that light in the pit for, what would it be?

Joseph – 28:21

Yeah.

So, oddly enough, whenever anybody asks me that question, I go back to this Bible verse, Matthew 25-40, it says, love your neighbor as yourself, this golden rule that Jesus said, and whether or not Jesus ever existed, who cares?

It’s a very common saying throughout all different religions and stuff.

And what I think he meant, what I think what I get from that is, And what I find in people that struggle like I do, there’s this huge compassion for other people to the point of we will love and help people to our demise.

And what I think Jesus was saying in that moment is your capacity to love other people is limited by how well you love yourself.

And I think if we can look at it in terms of.

How much more could I love my wife, kids, or my neighbor if I was just a little bit more kind to myself?

Joseph – 29:19

If I, maybe if I, I took another shower this week, um, for me, it was dental care, like brushing my teeth.

Like that was hard stuff.

Um, building a routine for that.

And might I say James Clear Book Atomic Habits is a brilliant book for people that struggle with mental illness.

It’s brilliant because it makes the process of like, don’t buy my book, buy his book.

Buy both books.

That’s fine.

Joseph – 29:47

That’s fine.

That’s fine.

He simplifies the process of personal development.

I’ve got these things I journal like crazy.

I have a special way of doing friendship that’s transformed my life and made friendship and taken the guesswork out of like, who do I ask for help?

And I’ve got this scale in my book that just takes the stupid out of communicating people with people where you’re at.

don’t have to tell my wife, Hey, I am thinking about blowing my brains out right now.

Joseph – 30:21

I can just tell her this one thing and she knows exactly where I am and what I need.

Yeah.

And you know what the people listening to this, this podcast, you know, you’ve got your own ideas and you’ve got your own passions.

They’re not stupid.

Like you are doing things to survive that will be meaningful and helpful to somebody else.

Use that.

That’s a gift.

Avery – 30:46

But a perfect way to end that.

Thank you so much, Joe, for sharing your story and sharing your wisdom.

And we’re going to link to everything in the show notes.

You have so many powerful resources for people.

So thank you.

I really appreciate you being here.

Joseph – 31:01

Can I add one more thing?

Avery – 31:02

Yes.

Joseph – 31:03

Okay, so in a second, you’re going to close out this show and you’re going to say, you know, take some breaths and all that stuff.

But let me just encourage your listeners to go on there and leave a review.

You’re not going to say it.

I know it.

But, but the more notice they give to you, you’re doing some amazing stuff.

Give her a five star review.

Let her know how much good she’s doing because this is amazing stuff that Avery is doing with this podcast.

Avery – 31:28

All of the things that you share that’s given me goosebumps and then that, I’m going to go have a nice little healthy cry after this.

I think I’ve got some emotion to release.

It’s just been such a wonderful conversation with you.

Hold please.

I know that these end-of-podcast blurbs are generally really repetitive and only say, make sure you’re subscribed.

But this isn’t like that.

Today, I have a little habit challenge for you.

Avery – 31:56

Before you sit down to do your next work block, I encourage you to take five slow deep breaths for five seconds on the inhale and five seconds on the exhale.

Doing this helps us turn off our stress switch which then regains access to our higher level thinking brain which is something that we talk about in the free course that’s included in the productivity partner app which helps you design your pre-work ritual.

And inside that productivity partner app, each day there’s a mini habit challenge where I take 60 seconds to explain something like this that you can do in your day to become even more effective and impactful as a high achiever.

You can try it for one week for free by going to thetruthaboutburnout.com.

Give nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Go give it a try.