Joseph – 00:00

Okay, one day we’re gonna conquer the world, the next day is like, don’t bother me, I’m not getting out of bed.

So it’s just like learning how to do all this manic swing of energy, not energy, not energy.

Avery – 00:13

Hi, I’m Avery Thatcher, a former ICU nurse, and this is not your standard stress management podcast where we just focus on those band-aid solutions like the benefits of meditation, mindfulness, and self-care.

You already know that you need some kind of recovery strategy to deal with your stressful life.

But what you may not know are all of the sneaky ways that society, our upbringing and our high achieving nature and so many other factors contribute to our risk of burnout.

That, my friend, is what we talk about here on this podcast because you can’t do something about a situation that you’re not aware of, right?

So if you’re ready to get out of the pattern of burning out, feeling better, only to burn out again, it’s time for us to shut the light on the truth about burnout.

Okay I am so excited today because this is my first ever double guest episode and I feel when I first met Joseph, I just connected with him right away and felt like we had so much to share and talk about and then when he shared about his partner I was just like okay I think I need to talk to both of

you because I feel like Melissa and I have a lot in common which is both nice because then you have someone you can talk to but also sad because he knows what somebody else is going through So welcome Joseph and Melissa.

Melissa – 01:32

It’s so nice to be here.

Joseph – 01:33

Yeah it’s really a pleasure and Avery you’re doing a great work you know just in the community of professionals I think the more we can talk about the subject and how we can support it’s just our own careers and ambitions but also kind of a holistic life approach is really good.

Avery – 01:48

Absolutely and I’m sure we’re going to talk a little bit about this Melissa but I feel like there are some skills that I was forced to learn That would have been so much more helpful earlier on, the like energy pacing and some of the other components.

You’re just like, well, why didn’t I learn that sooner?

Melissa – 02:07

Yeah, it’s been it’s been a long road, lots of learning, that’s for sure.

Avery – 02:13

Yeah, absolutely.

So tell me a little bit about that road for you.

What does your journey look like?

Melissa – 02:18

So I was diagnosed with my first autoimmune disorder disease.

I’ve heard it a lot of different ways.

When I was seven and so I was in elementary school and this is like a month of school and it wasn’t at the time it didn’t feel like a huge deal because it was just psoriasis and so nobody really got it besides like oh you’ve got dry skin or like that’s kind of what they assumed and it took me years

as a child to realize How it was affecting me outside of like what you could see that I was more tired than the other kids or that I got sick a lot more.

Little things like that.

So then my second autoimmune disease showed up in high school and I was 15 and that’s when I got rheumatoid arthritis and that one felt a lot harder.

Because I was a competitive pianist.

Melissa – 03:33

So that was the first time that it severely affected my life because everything hurt.

I couldn’t play sports, I wasn’t active.

And I did cut back on piano.

I ended up, it ended up being the reason that I didn’t major in piano in college or like these different life choices that I had to spin around that.

And that was pretty much it until COVID hit.

And as you know, stress just makes another one pop up.

And it was lockdown.

Melissa – 04:14

We had become foster parents right before lockdown.

And so we had a little baby and then we started homeschooling because our older five weren’t doing really well with the online school like at all because we have some other kids with learning disabilities from adoption.

And that’s when the Graves’ disease popped up.

And that one affected, affected everything, but I’d say that my energy was the biggest one.

Energy and brain fog, those are the two things I remember.

Like, all of a sudden, I couldn’t remember what I was doing.

Like, I would be halfway through a sentence and just lose it and that was the first time for me.

Melissa – 05:01

Like, the brain fog hadn’t showed up before and it showed up with the Graves’ disease and that was really bad.

Plus, you know, everything comes with Graves’ disease.

I had the hyper… when your weight is too… Hyperthyroidism?

Yes, but I… metabolism, thank you.

Look at this, we’re playing trades over here.

Avery – 05:26

That’s it, brain fog in action.

I recognize, oh good.

Melissa – 05:31

Yeah, so the hypermetabolism made my anxiety super bad.

Avery – 05:38

Oh, of course.

Melissa – 05:40

And I didn’t realize that would do that.

Like, it was like I was being attacked by a lion all the time.

So since then, I’ve made some major life changes and got a medication.

Like, I’m a true believer of both.

And so, Diarrhea is in a good place.

Obviously, it doesn’t, like, go away, but it’s in remission right now.

So, at this point, I’m trying to just not make anything happen.

Melissa – 06:09

Does that make sense?

Avery – 06:11

Absolutely.

Melissa – 06:11

It’s like constant fear of like, okay, if I get too stressed, I already have three.

Like the chances that another autoimmune issue pops up for me are very high if I get too stressed for an extended period of time.

Like it does take a while, but I’m trying.

Like we do have a lot of kids and we do whatever happens.

So there’s a lot of energy pacing.

I still suffer with chronic fatigue, obviously the brain fog as we’ve already seen.

And that’s kind of where we’re at.

Joseph – 06:44

I think there were a few things she left out there, so I’ll toot her horn for her.

She is a mother of nine, so she has three biological children and then now I guess it’s six adopted.

We did have four foster children.

So it’s talking about a high achieving woman.

When she was in college and she stopped her job at the math department, you have to hire three people to replace her.

So what she can accomplish in five minutes will probably take me about an hour.

She’s a hyper-efficient, hyper-focused, can get a lot of stuff done, amazing planner, hence why we’re even able to have this large family.

Joseph – 07:26

Because I’m often in la-la land, you know, creative soul over here.

And she’s thinking about what has to get done and then we can get stuff done because she does that.

She was top of her class in high school, you know, she had a full ride scholarship to the university that we had.

So all around like she gets stuff done, she’s ambitious.

Conditioning, just get stuff done, meets up with these kind of consecutive walls of chronic disease and then burnout has been kind of the cycle we’ve gone through several times.

We’ve learned how to like Okay.

One day we’re going to conquer the world.

Joseph – 08:12

The next day is like, don’t bother me.

I’m not getting out of bed.

So it’s just like learning how to deal with this like manic swing of energy, not energy, not energy.

Plus we have kids and oh, guess what?

We’re both sick.

You know, like that’s, that’s been some of the serious, um, difficulties we’ve had to face along with, you know, just job career changes and things of that nature.

Multiple speakers – 08:36

So I think that’d be interesting to look at some of those I think my biggest challenge currently is not overdoing it when I do feel good.

Avery – 08:48

I hear you.

It’s so tough to rein in the high achiever side of you and be like, hey, I need to like save up some of the energy for today so that I still have some tomorrow.

Yeah, so tell me what that dynamic is kind of like.

Like when, because obviously like Joseph shared and I loved hearing him talk just about you and how you could see how proud he is.

Like he’s definitely such a wonderful supportive partner you can see.

So tell me a little bit about how that shift continues to go and like what was the hardest part for your high achieving side to accept once all of these chronic illnesses started piling on?

Melissa – 09:32

Oh, there’s two.

A, because I’m very much a person that’s like, I will do anything I want.

I don’t care what it is.

I can learn how to do it, I will do it, and I will become proficient at it.

I don’t want to be great, but I will become proficient.

Like, I will do that.

And learning that there’s actual things that I will never be able to do is frustrating.

Melissa – 09:58

I don’t like that.

And then the things that are within my spectrum of achievability have started taking twice as long to get there.

And I don’t like that either.

Avery – 10:12

Oh my goodness.

Like I said before we hit record, like I feel so seen right now because everything you’re sharing, Melissa, are things that I’ve talked to my partner about, I’ve journaled about, I’ve gotten a therapy over, and it’s just like, it’s this loss of who you saw yourself as and what you saw yourself as

capable of.

Melissa – 10:32

It’s hard because I’m like good at not comparing myself to others.

I’ve worked really hard on that, but I will compare myself to my old self.

And I’m like, well, that was me, but obviously we’re not the same person that we were, you know, 10 years ago when we were doing this, or even 5 years ago when we were able to do this.

And, like, trying to simultaneously improve myself because I’m so goal-oriented, but, like, accept exactly where I am no matter what it looks like that day.

That self-compassion has been really tough.

Avery – 11:12

Of course.

So Joseph, how do you see all of that kind of integrating?

How does that play out for you?

Joseph – 11:18

I think the biggest transition that I’ve had to go through is learning and it’s actually the same lesson.

It’s kind of learning the same lesson she’s had to learn about herself but from the outside.

So for example, we can get really excited.

I’m trying to think of a specific example that we can get into.

This one’s back from college and this was kind of the first time I started to really learn about this.

And so for all you guys out there, I’m sure you can kind of relate up this.

You know, you think you’ve landed on the perfect date idea.

Joseph – 12:00

Like, okay, this is going to be good.

Like, she’s going to love this.

I was taking her to, it was a, uh, we were going to a ballet.

It was like, I think it was like the Swan Lake or something.

And I’m like, she’s going to love this.

It’s culture, you know, we’re going to feel so sophisticated and we go, we’re all excited and we’re sitting down, we’re feeling good about ourselves.

And then boom, the wall hits.

Joseph – 12:31

And she is just tired, can’t hold up her eyes.

And she’s like, can we just go now?

We weren’t in half.

I think halfway through the show.

And it was like, I had a hard time like seeing like, wait, what’s going on here?

Like.

We had this great show.

Joseph – 12:55

I mean, we used to stay up kissing and making out like just last year.

Like we made two o’clock easy, you know?

Avery – 13:04

The embarrassment for Melissa right now, the red that’s creeping in.

It’s a good thing we don’t share video.

Joseph – 13:11

And all of a sudden, like we can’t make it past nine o’clock, you know?

And so I think that was like one of the first, the first times I went, okay, there’s variability in this.

Another incident is when we were both really excited about having a foreign exchange student live with us.

You know, this was going to be super exciting, new culture, we’re going to learn about new culture, the kids are going to like have like kind of like this older sister and from another country sort of deal.

And again, we hit that wall, you know, a couple of weeks in and all that excitement, all that energy, it’s just sales are gone.

You know, there’s no win in the sales.

And so then going through, being okay going through the work to undo all of that.

Joseph – 13:58

And so I think for me, it’s learning to be present with the person I’m with right now and just accepting wherever she’s at.

But also like, I’ve learned to also think, okay, she’s high energy right now.

And something I’ve had to become better at and this, you know, the lesson I’m still learning is when she’s high energy to make sure I’m all the way there, Get done, done.

And then be willing to step up when it’s low energy and just manage expectations at the moment.

I haven’t always been perfect at that.

Sometimes I, you know, go off and I’m doing some other distracting activity when she has energy to get something done and that kind of creates friction because she’s expecting my help to get stuff done.

She has energy, let’s do it.

Joseph – 14:47

And it’s kind of energy is like this scarce resource now that we have to kind of plan around.

I probably sleep way better now than ever because we get to bed on time and we make sure that sleep is sacred.

Melissa – 15:01

We primarily sleep in this house and we’re in bed by like 8.30. What happened to us?

Avery – 15:09

Isn’t it brilliant though?

Multiple speakers – 15:12

My partner and I always joke that we’re 100 because we eat dinner at 4.30 and we’re in bed by 8.30. And with nine kids, that’s, you know, but it’s almost militant, you know, like we have to get, and that means learning to say no to things.

Melissa – 15:27

Yeah.

We say no to a lot of things.

Things that we’d like to do, like I was invited to book club last week and I’m like, Oh, it starts at eight.

Like, I’m sorry.

I will not be there.

Joseph – 15:40

We’re both heavily involved in our church and community.

So sometimes.

They say, all right, men, support your wives to go out and do the activity.

And like, she won’t be there.

It starts at eight o’clock.

Like, who does that?

Avery – 15:55

Yes, though.

Yeah, I think it just changes your perspective on things because most people They generally go through thinking that time is the most valuable resource, but when you experience something like this, like you talked about Joseph, energy is actually the most valuable resource.

Melissa – 16:16

No, and I know there’s people with chronic conditions who have to do this so much more than I do, but I do still have to calculate in my head if this energy expenditure is worth it.

So take today for example, we took One week off of everything for school, piano, everything.

So I was like, okay, we’re going to get this house organized.

But literally I’m trying to decide like, okay, do I go to the gym for my body or do I clean out this closet?

They’re going to be the same.

Like, and sometimes one wins out and sometimes the other, and I know there’s people who have to do it.

We’re like, oh, do I take a shower or not?

Melissa – 16:54

And it’s rare that it’s that bad.

It has happened, but not recently because I think we’ve gotten really good at figuring out how to work things.

But there’s a lot of like, okay, if we go to the aquarium this morning, I have to set aside an hour because I will need a nap.

Like, because that’s a really high energy with the kids, like different things like that.

So there’s, there’s a lot of mental calculations going on, especially when I wake up and I can tell what kind of day it’s going to be.

Avery – 17:28

Yeah.

And I feel like, like logically, we know that this is helpful.

And we can see that it’s helpful for our physical energy, but it also drains our mental energy that much faster and then leads to more brain fog.

And I often say that my brain is like Swiss cheese.

It’s full of holes and things just like fall out of it.

And my partner will be like, we talked about this yesterday.

And I’m just like, okay, tell me again.

Avery – 17:50

Cause I don’t know.

I’ve never heard this before in my life.

Melissa – 17:53

Reminders and alarms on my phone.

Is concerning.

Where is concerning but also helpful.

Yes, exactly.

Well, that’s why I do it because I will literally forget to get my kids from school.

Like it’s not that it just things happen and I forget that it’s this day or that this should be happening.

So we have alarms that go off nine or ten times a day for all the things.

Melissa – 18:22

I don’t sit in the oven for the stove for Because I will forget to check.

Yeah.

Avery – 18:30

Yeah, absolutely.

Joseph – 18:31

If I could say a hopeful thing here that… She still is accomplishing a lot.

Like, meaning maybe not quantity, but quality.

It makes you focus on quality because you can’t squander the quantity of energy.

I mean, she’s a mother of nine kids.

And our family is really important to us.

I think of, you know, on a scale of 1 to 10 of biologically driven women who want to be mothers, she’s probably at a 10. You know, there’s no right range.

I’m just saying, of things that are really important to her, they don’t slide off the radar.

Joseph – 19:12

She’s honed in, she’s focused in, so I would say she’s still very high in cheating on the things that matter most to her, but it forces you To identify what matters most to you.

And so I think that, and again, as someone who tries to be supportive, that helps me as well, because it clearly identifies for me what’s most important in my spouse’s life, and it helps me prioritize.

It helps me with my own habits as well.

Melissa – 19:49

I think the way that you Support me the most.

A super involved partner with the case.

Like I would say that this is equal.

He does all the bedtimes.

He does all the baths.

He’s like, you’re there.

You cook breakfast every morning.

Melissa – 20:06

All that good stuff.

But every Sunday, he will meal prep my meals for me.

So that I, because I have been following a low inflammation diet for years now.

And those are hard to cook for.

And he will, he’ll be like, okay, what are we having this week?

I do take care of the shopping.

So like that’s kind of my end, but he will make them all on Sundays.

Melissa – 20:32

So he’ll cook three or four meals that fit everything that we’re supposed to do.

And that’s huge, huge for not having to spend my energy on the making or the decision-making.

Both of those, which are tough.

Avery – 20:49

Yeah, definitely.

So you’ve given us a couple of strategies.

What other things do you do, Melissa, for yourself to try and make the most out of the energy that you have as a high achiever?

Melissa – 21:02

It’s like, I almost have a protocol for every type of day.

When I wake up, like if I can tell it’s a really low energy day, I’m like, okay, we need to change things.

It’s okay to have a little bit more screen time.

It’s okay to do, I still try to get out with the kids every day, but it’ll change to like going to a park and just sitting on a bench and making sure no one fails themselves.

Or I try to stay away from caffeine because it does make things worse overall, so it’s usually not worth it.

But some days I do use it because I’m like, we just have to get through.

When I’m high energy, I still struggle to not overdo it.

Melissa – 21:49

I really do.

And it’ll be like seven hours later when I’ve completely crashed, it’ll take the next day of not getting off the couch to recover from that.

So I’m trying to take more rest.

I’ve gotten really good this last year of when our little boys nap and it’s quiet time for everybody and I get at least a solid hour of rest.

Instead of working through naps because I feel like, oh, I can get so much done, they’re asleep.

Avery – 22:23

So what does rest actually look like for you now?

Melissa – 22:25

I’ve had to work on that too, because it isn’t scrolling through Instagram, which is what I want to do.

It’s very much like setting everything down and actually trying to sleep.

Like legitimate nap.

It doesn’t always happen, but I do try to always try.

And that’s tough too because I want to read my book, but it’s still resting and it doesn’t make the same difference, it really doesn’t.

Avery – 22:57

Now I’m with you.

One of the ways that I often have to rest in the middle of the day is literally with earplugs in the dark with my feet up the wall and you just lay there solid and just try not to do anything or think of anything.

And I remember early on when I figured that this actually worked for me.

It was just so hard to commit to because it was so boring.

You know, but now that I know how effective it is Because I’m fighting it less, I need less time to do it, depending on how I’m trying to recover and what I’m recovering from.

So I think, yeah, it’s just like you said, it’s a learning curve and it’s learning levels of self-compassion that you didn’t even know were required for life.

Melissa – 23:44

I’ve always used my accomplishments and my worth as a single unit.

That’s just how my brain worked.

And that worked for me for a while.

It really did, like there was no problem there.

And that’s why I didn’t prioritize rest because I quote unquote was not getting anything done.

And so it’s taken me a very long time to just sit there.

And like yesterday, my mom happened to come over right when it was like at the quiet time.

Melissa – 24:24

So if someone’s listening right now and relating to what you’ve shared, especially with all those mental gymnastics,

Avery – 24:54

What would you want them to know?

What would you want to tell them?

Melissa – 24:58

It’s taken me a really long time to accept that putting myself as the priority actually helps my family the most.

Legitimately.

Meaning taking the extra time to eat the food that supports me, making sure I have a nap every day even if the kids wanted to go do something right then.

Like it will help our family more if I put myself first.

And it’s taken days of putting that to the test to actually prove it.

But I had to put it to the test first.

And as the scientist I am, we were going to make it happen.

Avery – 25:41

I love it.

So then Joseph, if somebody was listening right now and they’re relating to your situation, what would you want them to know?

Joseph – 25:51

I would say it’s better to process disappointment than suppress it.

Because when you suppress disappointment, it leads to resentment.

I think being able to process resentment and move beyond it to acceptance.

Those are the five stages of grief.

Let yourself to grieve the change of expectations.

And also I think that leads to more because once you can kind of get out of process out of your own emotions and be able to emotionally connect to another person it allows you to allows for that connection to happen allows for love and gratitude because if you’re so blinded by your own resentment

you’ll never see how much sacrifice the other individual is doing And I feel like when you and I, and it does come back, but I feel like we’ve gotten to acceptance, which has opened up problem solving.

Melissa – 27:04

I was angry, I couldn’t see a way to fix things.

But when I’m in acceptance and open to things that before I wouldn’t have considered because I don’t want to be one of those people who has to do that or who does this, it improved my life significantly once I figured out that I wanted to figure it out.

Avery – 27:30

Beautifully said.

Beautifully said.

So just before we wrap things up and Joseph I still want to hear a little bit about your podcast but is there anything that you would really like to share with the person listening right now that we haven’t talked about yet?

Melissa – 27:45

We talked about this a little bit but for me the biggest lesson has been that a human has worth by existing and they are No more worthy than they ever are by any single action they ever do.

Joseph – 28:07

Something similar to that is just focus on the values that you want to live and you’ll value your actions.

It’s always like a North Star.

If I want to be a loving husband, it’s not whether we went to the whole ballet or whatever it may be.

Focus on the value that you want to be and your worth will always be right there.

Avery – 28:30

Beautiful.

And so, again, just tied into that, we can logically say those things to ourselves, but there has to be some work to get our emotional body on the same page.

So I think that’s just such a beautiful starting point for people, though, is to have that north star of where they’re kind of working towards.

So that’s beautiful.

So just before we wrap things up, I would love to hear for you to share, I guess, a little bit about your podcast, Joseph, because I feel like we have some similar overlaps and I know that there’ll be people listening that want to listen to yours.

Joseph – 29:04

Yeah, so mine’s the Emotional Man Weekly podcast, though it hasn’t been weekly since we’ve been working on a new season.

What I primarily focus is the intersection between building companies and building families.

So what does it look like to scale your company while still being present?

You know, and it’s not just, it’s at the very basis, it’s not about time management.

It’s about learning what, how balance is created by understanding what you value and building off of that because that way the whole ecosystem will work.

The decisions are easier to manage and instead of placing your value on net worth or how much time you’re with your families, it’s right there with where your functionality meets your values.

And so come on over, give it a listen if you’re a business owner or a spouse of a business owner and you want to learn how to live a balanced life.

Avery – 30:04

Absolutely, and I know that we do have a number of entrepreneurs listening, but even if you’re someone that is just struggling with work-life balance between your career and this, the episodes on this podcast are fantastic, so I would highly recommend you go and have a listen.

We’re going to link to all of that in the show notes as well.

So thank you so much Joseph and Melissa for your vulnerability and For sharing your connection and just your experience because I think I’ve heard this ages ago on another podcast interview that I did and they said that your story can become someone else’s survival guide and I really feel that’s

what you’ve laid out here today so thank you for that.

Melissa – 30:45

Thank you so much for having us.

Multiple speakers – 30:47

You’re doing great work.

Avery – 30:52

Uh, excuse me, one second please before you skip on to the next podcast.

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