Speaker_01 – 00:01
Hi I’m Avery Thatcher and I believe that we can’t solve a problem with the same mindset that created it.
That’s why on this podcast we combine ancient, Vedic and Taoist wisdom with our modern lifestyle and latest research to show high achievers like you how to recover your energy and optimize your habits so you can elevate your impact and prevent an epic burnout experience.
Because burnout’s a bitch and hindsight’s an asshole so rather than let them win let’s dig into the truth about burnout.
I am bringing another guest which I’m very excited to have on.
He and I met a couple of weeks ago in a networking event and it was just serendipitous that we got put into a breakout room together.
So grateful to have Kyle here.
So Kyle, I’ll let you introduce yourself.

Kyle – 00:51
Hey Avery, thank you so much for having me on.
Appreciate being on your podcast.
And yeah, it was, it was serendipitous.
I actually think we met a long time ago.
I think we crossed paths online somewhere because there was, there was an email trail somewhere, I think about podcasting.
And then now the timing was right.
The alignment was right.

Kyle – 01:11
And then, yeah, we were just able to connect each other with so many people and I really appreciate everyone you’ve connected me with.
Thank you so much.

Avery – 01:17
Oh, you’re welcome.
That’s fascinating that we’ve met before.
I’ll have to go back through my emails and see if I can find out what it’s connected to.
Yeah.

Kyle – 01:25
You’re getting, you’re getting, you’re getting followed by someone all the way in Perth, Western Australia.

Avery – 01:31
Opposite corners of the world for sure.
That’s super fun.

Kyle – 01:34
Exactly.

Avery – 01:35
So Kyle, you have a really unique story and I like to normalize the experience of struggle and trauma and to be able to talk about it.
Cause when we’re in it, we feel like we’re alone and I’m not a special snowflake.
With love, you are also not a special snowflake.
We have all been through some degree of shit.
So learning from each other and hearing other stories can be really healing.
So why don’t you tell us a little bit about you and what your story has really meant for you?

Kyle – 02:06
For sure.
And yeah, you’re right.
We’ve all been through some sort of sewage dump of challenges and moments that really asked everything of us and Those moments are where we where we either go two ways, you know, they’re kind of like a tea intersection, you know, when you’ve got those moments that really kind of kick you down.
So I struggled with like a lot of trauma, like physical abuse and mental and emotional abuse when I was a teenager.
And I was going to one of the greatest schools in Sydney at the time.
And it was interesting because Here you are struggling with all this trauma and you’re holding it all down because you’re in this place where an all-boys school preppy sort of environment and you don’t want to show any little flicker of weakness because You know, teenage kids, teenage boys, they can
be like sharks to blood, you know, like if they notice something, you know, which is unfortunate, but sometimes they will jump on that.

Kyle – 03:12
So yeah, I was holding down a lot of personal family issues.
And at the same time in South Africa, one of my family members was murdered and another family member passed away.
And then at the same time, my home life was just, I guess you said we can swear, so my home life was a shit show.
And so yeah, I was struggling with all of that.
And I mean, at that, at that age at 14, I saw no way out.
Like I really did see no way out.
Looking back, it’s, it’s difficult to think that you could be in such a predicament, you know, at such a young age, but you just need quite a few things in succession to go wrong.

Kyle – 03:49
And what happened was because there were so many personal relationships, parental, familial relationships that were so dysfunctional and I guess traumatic, I kind of closed in.
I cut myself off from other people and I closed in.
As a protective mechanism and then I actually ended up four years later developing health problems and through that I finally got into stage one in my life where I realised that I created that environment and for me taking ownership of that, not being the victim, not being The victim of something
haphazardly or an occurrence happening to me, I can see, wow, now that I know that I can take control of that, I can go, well, I’m not going to cut myself off anymore.
I’m not going to go reclusive anymore.
So then I don’t have to go through those health struggles again and again and again.
And I think that’s what I really learned was the emotional connection between your health and how much you can impact your health.

Kyle – 04:54
Not just from getting anxious and stressed, you can cut yourself off from connection and in today’s day it’s so easy to isolate yourself.
When you get hurt and I’ve been told that I can be a sensitive soul and all those sorts of things.
When you go through things most other people and most other teenagers at the time don’t go through, you feel like you’ve got no one to talk to, it’s a struggle.
And the people you have to talk to, I had a counsellor at my school and I eventually went and lived with my grandmother and she was a counsellor and I had people around me to talk to but It doesn’t mean you talk to them and it doesn’t mean you share everything and it doesn’t mean you like it at all
or you enjoy the process or you think it’s going to help.
It is challenging but there is always help.
There’s always someone that can just help you and people can just listen.

Kyle – 05:50
That’s some of the best help in the world.

Avery – 05:55
So I feel, and I’ve seen a lot and in my own experience as well, when we are highly sensitive and we’ve grown up in this world that’s scared to feel, or we aren’t shown healthy ways to process difficult, big emotions, we become hyper independent.
We don’t know how to ask for help.
We don’t know how to share for other people.
So what did that look like for you and what changed?
What allowed you to reach out for help?

Kyle – 06:25
Well, you’re exactly right.
You do become super independent and you go, well, no one else is going to take care of my ship other than me.
And I obviously can’t depend on people.
I can’t depend on people that historically or genetically or make sense to depend on most.
And then so you kind of go, well, can’t depend on anyone and you get quite negative and reclusive.
So for me, it all changed when I was displaced from home.
I didn’t have a place to go.

Kyle – 06:55
And so it was a really like, it was a really extreme situation.
It was really dire.
You know, I had to find somewhere to live.

Avery – 07:04
What age were you?

Kyle – 07:05
14. So I had to, you know, and all my family is in South Africa, but my, my Australian family, which, you know, uh, I guess I’ve, I became assimilated with is in Sydney, Australia.
So I was able to, uh, in the middle of the night, like go down, catch a train and yes, so I’ll skip a train and get through and get to my grandparents.
And Knocked on their door in the early hours of the morning and then they open up their doors and they open up their hearts and they welcome me in and they really were like, I do say they were like angels and they became parents to me, you know, they looked after me, they guarded me but it’s funny
even having that support I was still, you know, isolated, I was still cut off like I had the most amazing people I didn’t realize it until I was quite a bit older.
I had this vision, this fantasy of going back to South Africa and being back there because every time I would go back to South Africa, I’d see a lot of my family and everyone would be so excited to see you.
I just felt like a flat, monotone, grayscale sort of feeling when I came back to Australia.
And so there was that disparity because you’ve got the trauma, you’ve got the hurt, you’ve got all the pain you’ve experienced here.

Kyle – 08:27
It doesn’t necessarily mean that’s what it is like here.
That’s your experience of it.
So it takes a certain point, a big shock or a big change for you to actually go and see someone.
I had my grandparents around and my grandmother, she was relentless.
She would, every time I opened that, every time I had touched that door knob, she would pop up from her seat in the lounge room and come to the front door and just like greet me, you know, and it’s just amazing.
She was like, how was your day?
And like I said, I was very like, yeah, you know, that was great.

Kyle – 09:03
And I’d scurry off to.
To the, I call it the dungeon.
So it was underneath my like grandparent’s house.
That’s where my grandfather’s drawing board, he was an architect.
So that’s where his drawing board was.
And also where like my grandmother did like counseling sessions and like on one side.
So I’d scurry off there, you know, as quick as quick as I could.

Kyle – 09:22
But you know, after, after a while.
I guess she kind of broke me down, you know, she kind of ground me down and eventually I opened up a little bit more, and they had an environment where I could go into their, to their room, you know, could just go in there and just talk to them.
And they would listen, they would, you know, they did not, they did not come with judgment and, um, you know, advice straight off the bat.
And they would just listen, they would let me talk things through.
And, and I often look at a lot of the family cause they come over like, My grandparents had so many people just constantly coming over to their house, constantly coming over, visiting them, seeing them, talking to them.
And I just kind of, I looked at it one day and I went, wow, everyone gets counseled here because so many people are coming there talking about their problems, talking through their life.
And my grandparents were just amazing at just listening and intently listening, engaging with people and people would just share all, you know?

Kyle – 10:17
And so it was like a beautiful, beautiful little space to be in.

Avery – 10:20
What a beautiful gift they gave you.
A gift beyond measure.
Oh yeah, with what you’ve been through it’s very much, so for sure PTSD may play a role in there but a lot of complex trauma layers and layers over time and one of the well-documented treatments for that is to have somebody before they even start trying to give you strategies, just listen.
To just hold space because we need time to trust.
Otherwise, we’re going to keep it superficial with you.
And if you push too fast, we’re just going to shut down again.

Kyle – 11:01
Yep.
And that’s what it was.
It was the shutting down, you know, you just completely shut off.
And I remember I’d go back to South Africa and have like, you know, different family relationships.
And, you know, like sometimes I’d say like, oh, let’s go to the movies.
Let’s do this.
Let’s do that.

Kyle – 11:14
You know, always like super keen and excited.
And, you know, sometimes I get, you know, like a reaction, like, you know, Just like a loud, no, I’ve got to, you know, and something like that would just kind of make me go shut in, you know, and just shut down.
And it was just like, Oh, like it was this kind of this trauma loop that I was in, you know, because I would put myself out there because that’s who I am, who my nature is.
I’m like excited, engaged.
I want to have experiences, you know, I’m curious and I want to, want to enjoy my time with other people.
And do fun things.
And then you put yourself out there and then someone would, I guess, react poorly and then you just shut back down.

Kyle – 11:55
So yeah, it was difficult to be in that loop for so long.
And you wonder when, when will I get out of this?
You know, when will it change?
Like, I know what it’s doing to me.
I can feel what it’s doing to me.
And eventually it eventually turned into You know, manifested as a health problems.
And I think, you know, I had to, I had to face it, but you’re so right that PTSD, because even through the health problems and then surgeries and different sorts of things, that PTSD showed up years and years later.

Kyle – 12:23
I thought I had, you know, I’d learned so much and I’d come so far and, you know, then I’d get up, you know, in the morning, go for a jog or, you know, have a cold shower and I’d be terrified that one of my organs is going to explode or like something just ridiculous, you know, but just that little
trail of PTSD, like you said.

Avery – 12:41
I find that people that come in with trauma, they process things differently and they almost skip a really important phase.
So even when nobody has died, we still can experience grief.
Grief comes in so many different forms.
But for people with trauma, I find, and maybe you can relate to this or not, but we skip over anger.
So we go straight from like bargaining, denial, depression, We think it’s acceptance but really I feel it’s just numbed association and until we get angry we can’t actually fully heal that person.

Kyle – 13:18
Yeah and it’s funny at that 14 year age I had a lot of anger and I had a lot of I guess a lot of vigor and like fighting back you know but by that time I was ground down so much that I just didn’t get angry I just went from like you said hurt like grief or hurt to shut off and shut down.
You know, and it was just like, it was probably just getting worse and worse, you know, because I didn’t have that time to go and punch a wall and let it out.
And it does actually help you like let it out.
When I was letting it out and a friend would see, oh, I’ve got some marks on my fist and I punched a wall and he’d be like, oh, let’s go out, let’s go out and go to the gym or let’s go, you know, like people would like around me would help.
Kind of guide me through that, but then yeah, it got to a point where it just went, it kind of skipped that angle.

Avery – 14:14
So you’ve alluded at it a little bit, but do you want to share about your health experience?

Kyle – 14:19
Yeah, sure.
Yeah.
So, well, so I had, I had a heart disease, so basically I came home one night from, from the gym and the gym was really a great sanctuary for me, you know, and I was coming back from the gym one night and I sat on the couch and Independence Day was on the screen and all of a sudden I got really,
really hot.
So I took all my clothes off and I sat there naked and then on the couch and then I got really, really cold, put everything back on.
And then the second night I went to the fridge and I went to get water and I collapsed.
And then the third day I went to the doctor, they gave me some tablets.

Kyle – 14:55
They said, we’re thinking of Gastro.
Got home, threw up the tablets.
I just kept saying to the people that I was with, I said, I need to go to hospital.
I just knew I was like, I need to go to the hospital.
There’s something wrong.
And then eventually I got taken to the hospital.
Uncle.

Kyle – 15:09
He saw me walking down and he just said, take this kid to the doctor.
If the doctor doesn’t take him to the hospital, you guys take him because he’s got a virus and I can see he’s got a virus.
Went to the doctor, lovely Chinese doctor that I like this beautiful man that I had I spent my teenage years kind of going to every now and then and he actually gave me this book titled Hope with beautiful landscapes because he knew kind of about some of my upbringing and so it was like you
know more than just the doctor to me it was like someone very special and So you notice these red tips on the ends of my fingers, red dots and he said 10 years earlier when he was studying in hospital he said he noticed these and what it meant was that you got an infection on your heart.
He said yep you need to get into an ambulance right now and go to the hospital.
So I got rushed to the hospital and then I was I was in the hospital and I told my family, like, I really need to go toilet.
And then I couldn’t go toilet.

Kyle – 16:08
And then a nurse came over and she looked at my paperwork.
She said, Oh my God, you’re supposed to go through to ICU as soon as you got here.
Like your organs are shutting down.
That’s why, you know, like we need to take you through right now.
She took me through.
The doctor said, Kyle, we’re going to put you into a induced coma.
And you know, you know, when you’re so sick, like your peripheral vision, like everything, you’re kind of just like, Okay, yeah, that sounds, induced coma, sounds like a good idea, sure doc, you know, and then so he put me into induced coma and then he told my family that I would most likely pass

Kyle – 16:40
away and you know that I would likely not wake up.
And what happened is that I had a bug eating a hole into my heart.
And so obviously, spoiler alert, I did wake up and then, yeah, and they didn’t know what it was from, you know, they had like eight sort of investigation areas open, you know, these different things that it could have been.
I mean, obviously the number one thing is intravenous drugs, which I didn’t do or don’t do or never have done.
You know, that was the number one thing.
And then all these other things, you know, maybe playing rugby, but then it didn’t make sense because I was playing rugby Saturday and Sunday.
And so for me to have like, I guess, an impact at heart, it was like, you know, for me to be able to do that much cardiovascular exercise and they couldn’t find a source.

Kyle – 17:30
And so then I had a long, long healing, long, long healing journey, um, recovery journey.
I went from 92 kilos, like pure muscle, you know, like I was, I was well-built and in the space of a few weeks, I was down to 77 kilos in the hospital.
So it was, uh, it was a rebirthing for sure.

Avery – 17:51
Absolutely.
I remember when I worked in the ICU part of our training, they showed us the research that for every day you spend in the ICU, it’s three months of rehab in order to recover minimum.
And especially if you’re in the induced coma space.
So yeah, that’s, it sounds like such a scary experience for me to have gone through.

Kyle – 18:16
Yeah.
I remember when I got out of, cause I spent, I spent six weeks in hospital and I got out and I was, I was just crying cause like, yeah, I see the sky and feel the warmth of the sun and I just kept hugging family and then I would hug them again and then hug them again.
It’s just like, it was so funny, like, you know, those simple things that, that are so beautiful in our life, you know, I was able to have like a new appreciation for.

Avery – 18:45
So I think you’ve already shared a couple of things that have worked for you.
Also appreciating life in a different way because of what you’ve been through.
And then the gym was helpful for you.
What other strategies worked for you and which ones didn’t?

Kyle – 19:01
Friends was maybe one of the things that worked to a certain extent, like having friends, because it’s somewhere where you could kind of forget about your life.
You could kind of go, and especially at that age, I could go, okay, forget about it.
But it wasn’t really people that I could open up and talk to.
So for me, the biggest strategy was, like you said, trust, like really getting to know that one person.
So like, My grandmother was the person that I ended up talking to you know and then I had a best friend that I shared a little bit about and then you know it was funny when other friends you know would kind of tease me or whatever like when I wasn’t there he would stand up for me because he’d
be like no you don’t know what he’s been through blah so it’s finding those people that are just like naturally loyal When I was in hospital, that friend went and saw my grandparents and went to check in on them and catch up with them.
I didn’t ask him.

Kyle – 19:53
He never shared it.
He never promoted it.
I just found out through my grandparents.
So those sorts of people really vetting the person you’re going to share with because yes, you can share.
You can share with everyone.
We have these social media devices.
You can share your story with anyone at any moment.

Kyle – 20:10
Hold it close to your chest who you’re sharing to, I think, because you could share something with the wrong person and feel 10 times worse once you’ve shared it.
Or you could share something and say, oh, this is what I went through.
And then, yeah, I went through something similar, you know, and you’re like, oh shit, you’ve just taken my thing and put it through the ringer.

Multiple speakers – 20:32
Yeah, exactly.

Avery – 20:35
But it’s not a competition.
Like trauma is not a competition.
We all deserve to heal no matter how big or little it is for sure.
Exactly.
That friend sounds wonderful.
I’m so grateful that you had that kind of friend in your life.

Kyle – 20:50
Yeah.

Avery – 20:51
Are you friends still?

Kyle – 20:53
Yeah, yeah.
I’m still friends with him.
He’s over in Sydney.
And yeah, he was just a really mature friend.
You know, like he was, he just kind of had like a bit more maturity than the rest of us.
It was interesting.
And he would always do, he would always do the right thing.

Kyle – 21:07
He was such a loyal person who wanted to do the right thing.
So, and we didn’t always agree like that.
That’s another good takeaway.
Like we didn’t always agree.
We didn’t always, we had, we had a lot of arguments, but we, we had a lot of like great moments, you know, like bonding and sharing.
So, so I mean, that’s what a friendship is, I guess, you know, I think it’s unrealistic to think that at every moment, same thing with relationship, you know, like it’s just going to be butterflies the whole way through.

Avery – 21:34
Yeah.
I can’t remember who calls them this, but someone that I was listening to, it might’ve been Brendan Burchard, he talks about growth friends.
So growth friends aren’t ones that agree with you all the time.
They’re the ones that push you, the ones that challenge you and also have your back.
So it sounds like that person was a growth friend for you.

Kyle – 21:55
Yep, and I’ve had a few of those people and it’s funny the people that have not always said the nicest thing or maybe like the right thing or the thing that comforting thing or thing I want to hear at the time and at that time I was like oh you know like those actually have been the people that I’ve
kept relation for the longest and have been have shown up there the most for me and I guess it is that accountability.
I believe in you and I want to hold you responsible for who I believe you can be.
You know, even if it’s just repeating what you said, you know, hey, you said you do this.
So yeah, I love that.
I love that quote.

Avery – 22:32
I love that.
So what advice could you give somebody that knows that they need to trust, that knows that they need to start letting people in, but it scares the fuck out of them?

Kyle – 22:44
Probably the best advice I could give.
And it is, it is, it is terrifying.
It is hard and it’s uncomfortable as shit.
Like it’s, it’s freaking uncomfortable.
Recognize that everyone has had an experience in life that is very similar.
We all have about five key problems that we’re dealing with.
Yes, there’s layers.

Kyle – 23:09
Yes, there’s unique intricacies, but we’re dealing with hurt, abandonment, fear, worry about the future.
There’s a few key problems that cycle over and over again that kind of show up and they might show up with different titles or they might show up with different themes but they are very much similar problems.
When I was younger, what was the thing?
It was like I wasn’t feeling appreciated and not being acknowledged and then that kind of showed up the whole way through my life.
I was like, wow, I’ve got this acknowledgement thing I need to work on.
I would say that a lot of people that you don’t even expect, that you think are all together have gone through some things.
So when you’re sharing, realize that you can relate and you can connect with a lot of people.

Kyle – 23:57
And that’s probably been the most interesting thing that I’ve found through my journey is like, wow, you can really connect with a lot of people.
My stepfather put it perfectly.
He said, we’re all having the same experience, but we’re experiencing it differently.
This human experience, this collective consciousness that we’re all agreeing with is very similar.
But we’re each having our own sort of hero in the movie story experience of it.
And sometimes we think like, oh, we’re all alone and no one’s going to understand.
I know I felt like that no one understands no one’s going to know like all these kids they’re driving their daddy’s bmw to school and they’re you know their problems their world is totally different but man like who was I to judge I got no idea just because they’re driving daddy’s bmw they could

Kyle – 24:37
have freaking abusive father they could have Whatever, maybe a real hard father that they can never be good enough for.
So I’ve got no idea.
And that’s where that kind of perception or that judgment, I don’t care what you look like, I don’t see in color, I don’t see in status or a class, I just see a human.
And I think that’s something that’s important is that people at all levels, everyone has their own struggle, everyone has their own And if we can kind of open that heart a little bit more and connect, you don’t have to go straight into it.
You don’t have to dive into, you know, what their problem is, but, you know, make them feel uncomfortable.
But if you just share a little bit more, people will want to resonate and share and then they’ll go, Oh my God, you’re another human.
You know, like we can be human together.

Avery – 25:24
Absolutely.
So was that the driving motivation behind writing your book or was there something else?

Kyle – 25:31
So the big driving motivation was I came back from Sydney and my grandfather had passed away.
So I went to Sydney and I saw him off.
I held his hand as he passed away.
So I was able to see that moment, which was, it’s a beautiful experience, difficult, but like incredibly difficult, incredibly rewarding just to be there and looking after him.
And I came back to Perth and I sat in my room and I was just in deep prayer and I just said, God, ether, energy source, just please show me the path that I’m supposed to be on now.
I don’t want to waste any more time.
I don’t want to bumble around life or knock anymore.

Kyle – 26:11
I think I’ve had quite a few experiences like, can I get on path?
And then And then this vision of this book came out of the left hand corner and then the title Decided Destiny was something my grandfather said to me two months before I went into the induced coma.
When I was 18 he said, well sit on the couch.
We weren’t talking about anything, we’ll sit on the couch and he just said, decide your destiny.
That kind of went straight through one ear and out the other, but it came back all those years later.
I think it was just a real pull to be doing something and be contributing and be giving gifts that I can give and showing up every day for more than just me.
You know, for my community, for my family, for the people I’ve never met, like, you know, exactly what we’re talking about.

Kyle – 26:59
Like, how can you be there for someone else?
You know, how, like, what ways can you do?
What strategies can you use to connect and allow other people to open up?
So it was just, I was like, I need a tool to be able to help with more people.
I love photography.
I love my business.
I really do.

Kyle – 27:14
And I’ve loved helping people.
To anyone listening, you can help in what you’re doing right now.
You can always help in what you’re doing right now.
That’s where the book came because I just wanted to help in a different way, in a new way.

Avery – 27:27
That was such a beautiful message to end on there.
You can help in what you’re doing right now.
Because we always think that we need to do something different, do something better, be able to learn more, but us as we are is enough.
That was so beautiful.
Thank you for that.
So tell me, Kyle, if people want to learn more about your book or other things that you have going on, how can they connect with you?

Kyle – 27:51
The book at the moment, I’ve got it coming out.
I’ve had the crowdfunding campaign, which has been a great success and it’s been a heck of a journey.
I’ve got the book coming out and you can find it at decideyourdestinybook.com and then on there, the rituals of design your destiny course will be, there will be different resources and different things people can kind of get involved in and yeah, please reach out.
I’m always keen to help and connect and collaborate.

Avery – 28:21
Sounds wonderful.
We’ll make sure that we link to everything in the show notes.
So thank you so much, Kyle.
I really appreciate your vulnerability and I know how hard that is to do.
So I am so grateful for that and for you being able to hold space for that as well.
Is there anything else that you’d like to leave for our listeners before we let you go?

Kyle – 28:43
You can always bring joy into people’s lives.
There’s always opportunities and always ways that you can kind of connect and help and contribute.
And my grandparents era, that’s what they did because they didn’t live as isolated as we do today.
You know, before 20, even before 2020, how isolated we live is very different to how they live.
And they were always contributing.
They were always, you know, looking after someone else’s kids and going over here.
And so they were always doing different things.

Kyle – 29:07
So I would just say, you know, look for ways, you know, creative ways.
And it’s so cool in the digital age that we’ve got these tools.
We can contribute in very creative ways.
That’s what I would love to leave with.

Avery – 29:18
I love that.
Thank you so much, Kyle.
Thank you so much for listening.
I really hope you found this episode helpful, validating, and maybe you even got a few ideas to try yourself.
If you did enjoy this episode, I just ask that you share it with someone that you think might also benefit from listening to this podcast.
In doing this, you’re not only helping those that you love, you’re also helping me get this podcast into the hands of more people.
Together, we can really make a difference.

Avery – 29:47
And before I let you go, do you know your default self-sabotage style?
There are four main self-sabotage styles that ultimately lead to burnout and knowing yours can make a really big difference in your ability to prevent burnout from taking over.
Awareness is the first step and the second step.
What you can do with this awareness of your default self-sabotage style, I will send you some ideas for what that second step could be after you complete your quiz results.
So are you ready for this quick quiz?
Go to BecomingAvery.com slash quiz to try it out for yourself and take the first step on your intentional burnout recovery journey.
BecomingAvery.com slash quiz for that self-sabotage style assessment.

Avery – 30:32
That’s it for now, see you next week!